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in other words the 80% of the population that is black has voted overwhelmingly for the anc. the opposition party has been predominately white. so unless or until south africa breaks out of that particular mold, it is difficult to bring about rapid change. so is it too much to ask, the people in townships, is it too much to ask of the government, 20 years of afc rule, to have brought about the dramatic changes that have improved the lives of the people in the townships? >> two issues here. twenty-first is the overall rate of economic growth has been disappointing. it's a little over 3% a year, that's substantially less. than say in china. the second is the educational system has failed the population. for reasons can are obscure. not very similar. about a quarter of the country's budget is on education. that being the case, why isn't the delivery very much better. >> that's a question we ask here in the united states. >> we do. >> so -- no one wants to be thought of as being pessimistic, or apisms so what degree of optimism do you have for the future of south africa. >> oh, p
in other words the 80% of the population that is black has voted overwhelmingly for the anc. the opposition party has been predominately white. so unless or until south africa breaks out of that particular mold, it is difficult to bring about rapid change. so is it too much to ask, the people in townships, is it too much to ask of the government, 20 years of afc rule, to have brought about the dramatic changes that have improved the lives of the people in the townships? >> two issues...
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Dec 9, 2013
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so they are kind of right now stopped with the anc? >> not stuck, but they just keep returning the same political. >> been in power for a long time, 20 years now. it is familiar? >> right but i think it's to do with the strength 69 anc lies in exactly almost it's shapelessness, sort of amorefus because it's a political party that offers nearly everybody what they want, left-wing, a little bit of right-wing and a little bit of the center. so, i think because of that spentb special mic of the national african con congress, they still find something in it that appeals to them. >> especially since it has accomplished great features? >> exactly. >> can't lose site of that? >> other political parties don't have as much of that historical mission, historical achievement? >> we will see what develops there. in the meantime, everyone is remembering their most pivotal leaders, nelson mandel a? >> i think that moment will last for a bit, that moment of rememberance and commemoration and, also, the value orizatiori 6r7b8ing9s thank you for being i
so they are kind of right now stopped with the anc? >> not stuck, but they just keep returning the same political. >> been in power for a long time, 20 years now. it is familiar? >> right but i think it's to do with the strength 69 anc lies in exactly almost it's shapelessness, sort of amorefus because it's a political party that offers nearly everybody what they want, left-wing, a little bit of right-wing and a little bit of the center. so, i think because of that spentb...
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Dec 8, 2013
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to what extent can they keep him, what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc majority. they're still more than 60% of the vote is what they get, but they're being challenged from essentially both left and right. and that's going to be very interesting once we have gone through the next few weeks of memorialization and how the dust settles on that. >> 15 seconds, do you think that mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of those moments which seems very, very profound five years ago will have forgotening him? >> my fear, talking about the brand of mandela's legacy is that the west, the emphasis has been so much on his legacy, that once he forgive and had overcome an unjust system, and that the struggle continues to create a more just society, just as it did in the united states after legal segregation was aboll learned. my hope a s that mandela isn't too domesticated and sanitized now in his death. >> thank you all three of you. wonderful panel. up next, japan loves violent video games, just like america. but they have almost no gun violence. why? we'll explain o
to what extent can they keep him, what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc majority. they're still more than 60% of the vote is what they get, but they're being challenged from essentially both left and right. and that's going to be very interesting once we have gone through the next few weeks of memorialization and how the dust settles on that. >> 15 seconds, do you think that mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of those moments which seems very, very profound...
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do you think this is the end of the anc of nelson mandela's party? >> it is not end but it is a moment of reconsideration i think for anc. they have to straz very wisely but they also have to put forward a much stronger set of policies if they want people to support them in the same way. >> brieflily you says nothing in because -- >> because a lot of south africans are going to support the anc. >> with nelson mandela on the top of everyone's mind. >> and the other parties are not offering people all that much alternatives. >> they are stuck with the anc? >> not stuck. but they keep returning the same political -- >> it has been in power a long:00, it is familiar. >> right but it has to do with the fact that the strength of the anc relies on its shapelessness amorphous -- it is a political party that offers people a bit of what they want, a little bit of left wing politics, a little bit of right wing and a little bit of the center and because of that special mix of the african national congress even when people are disgruntled with the party they stil
do you think this is the end of the anc of nelson mandela's party? >> it is not end but it is a moment of reconsideration i think for anc. they have to straz very wisely but they also have to put forward a much stronger set of policies if they want people to support them in the same way. >> brieflily you says nothing in because -- >> because a lot of south africans are going to support the anc. >> with nelson mandela on the top of everyone's mind. >> and the other...
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but remember when he came out, he was a loyal member of the anc as he said. part of his virtue as a politician was that he changed and bended. the anc said, national of the minds, he believed that, he changed his mind. but what he always believed and never forgot and it's a little bit unpopular to say he believed politics was way of changing people's lives for the better. and he was proud to call himself a politics that is what he did. >> as politics you also understood dramatic flourish. there were moments, we saw that in 1990 when he did that eight-city tour. i think when he went to detroit he quoted marvin gay. in front of that audience, it was brilliant. mother, mother, too many of -- brother, brother, too many of you are dying, mother, mother, too many are crying. he understood the moment. >> schieffer: what did he say in new york? >> can i just tell a story. when we were doing christmas kindness in south africa go to remote villages. thousands of kids would be waiting for their soccer balls and jersey. a local politician went on for an hour about politi
but remember when he came out, he was a loyal member of the anc as he said. part of his virtue as a politician was that he changed and bended. the anc said, national of the minds, he believed that, he changed his mind. but what he always believed and never forgot and it's a little bit unpopular to say he believed politics was way of changing people's lives for the better. and he was proud to call himself a politics that is what he did. >> as politics you also understood dramatic flourish....
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what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc majority. there's still more than 60% of the vote is what they get. they're being challenged from both left and right. that's going to be very interesting once we've gone through the next few weeks of memorialization as to how the dust settles on that. >> peter, 15 seconds, do you think -- i'm sorry about this -- but do you think mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of these moments which seems very, very profound, five years ago we will have forgotten him 1234. >> talking about the brand of mandela is the emphasis on the u.s. has been so much on the forgiveness that we have forgotten that he only forgave once he had actually overcome an unjust system and that the struggle in south africa continues to create a more just society. just as it did in the united states after legal segregation was abolished but there were still massive economic inequities. my hope is mandela is not too domesticated and sanitized now in his death. >> thank you all three of you. the two peters, a wonderful p
what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc majority. there's still more than 60% of the vote is what they get. they're being challenged from both left and right. that's going to be very interesting once we've gone through the next few weeks of memorialization as to how the dust settles on that. >> peter, 15 seconds, do you think -- i'm sorry about this -- but do you think mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of these moments which seems very, very profound, five...
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Dec 7, 2013
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i was surprised at how much i didn't know the more i started to uncover the struggles of the anc and the struggles of him personally with winnie and that was interesting. because i played him in the movie which was essentially about winnie mandela and i had no idea and i don't think anyone had any idea of all of these smiling shots of him coming out of prison he was going through a terrible time personally. she had kept his flame alive and he had kind of gone off the rails slightly and people in the anc said nelson you have to deal with this woman. he wroat al wrote all of these e letters and they wer he was goie out and they were going to be together. it was further from the truth. >> when you heard the news yesterday. >> i was deeply saddened. death comes to all us. i was really upset by it. and i it just so happened i was sitting in medema restaurant and i was stunned. here i was sitting looking at the walls full of pictures of mandela and he just passed. i think that was quite erie for me. i was sphruk by th struck by tht every single picture i was looking at he was smiling. that
i was surprised at how much i didn't know the more i started to uncover the struggles of the anc and the struggles of him personally with winnie and that was interesting. because i played him in the movie which was essentially about winnie mandela and i had no idea and i don't think anyone had any idea of all of these smiling shots of him coming out of prison he was going through a terrible time personally. she had kept his flame alive and he had kind of gone off the rails slightly and people...
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this former anc soldier and his wife were there the day after nelson mandela was released from prison 23 years ago. >> back and 1954 how as opposed to black emanation as we are too white domination. >> you say that you are sitting on this side, right? what was going through your mind at that time when you saw mandela walking into the stadium? >> when mandela was walking , is justhe stadium pull out my pistol and shoot, feeling like crying. >> africa! africa! >> they were talking about .andela i told myself i was going to see mandela. they shouted for him. it was very nice. >> today, they joined presidents, prime ministers, and the world in paying tribute to nelson mandela, returning to the stadium where they had seen him speak all those years ago. here, soands of people .any world leaders >> pride is one of the things they man they call madiba gave them. they came to remember the man their nation. how could they possibly forget him? >> she is right. i was in that stadium, two, in 1990 after mandela had just gotten out of prison, and it was indeed very nice. tomorrow, there will be a m
this former anc soldier and his wife were there the day after nelson mandela was released from prison 23 years ago. >> back and 1954 how as opposed to black emanation as we are too white domination. >> you say that you are sitting on this side, right? what was going through your mind at that time when you saw mandela walking into the stadium? >> when mandela was walking , is justhe stadium pull out my pistol and shoot, feeling like crying. >> africa! africa! >>...
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some of the black opponents of anc fought on. one of the first stories i covered was in the anc township where it's zulu warriors from a hostile that marched in the dead of night and slaughtered 40 people women and children among them. so, you know, it was not a simple matter of de klerk deciding to negotiate and everything got easy. you know, white bitter enders assassinated the head of the communist party, one of the most promising young black leaders around that time. a bunch of kind of resistance types tried to storm one of the african so-called homelands. so there were people who tried to keep the fight going. but the balance just had had shift sod dramatically that, you know, de klerk was a realist. and they desperately needed a realist on the other side of the table. >> mr. delms, when i was talking about nelson mandela right before he was officially elected, he gave a lot of credit to the united states. i thought he was being very generous in saying our country was the most -- enemy of the world. do you think united state
some of the black opponents of anc fought on. one of the first stories i covered was in the anc township where it's zulu warriors from a hostile that marched in the dead of night and slaughtered 40 people women and children among them. so, you know, it was not a simple matter of de klerk deciding to negotiate and everything got easy. you know, white bitter enders assassinated the head of the communist party, one of the most promising young black leaders around that time. a bunch of kind of...
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. >> i want to address if you want and keep ance company it issue. the president was speaking for the american people. insurancespeaking for companies. which doesn't make him a liar. you can keep your insurance it.any if you want he wasn't speaking for the insurance company. i would like to address also to guests, what are epublicans doing to help this country? thank you? >> scott wilson, some of how the public perception is on some of the issues of the health care law. the president t if you quently about like your insurance plan, you plan, p your insurance that was a pithy way that people ho try to get their insurance, the vast majority of americans, should not fear the new legislation. it did not turn out to be the case. the fact of the matter is that the legislation was written in a way to weed out insurance that were not meeting minimum standards set out by the law. so the white house knew that that was not going to be the case for every american. they just saw it was going to be a small percentage of americans who were not going to be able to k
. >> i want to address if you want and keep ance company it issue. the president was speaking for the american people. insurancespeaking for companies. which doesn't make him a liar. you can keep your insurance it.any if you want he wasn't speaking for the insurance company. i would like to address also to guests, what are epublicans doing to help this country? thank you? >> scott wilson, some of how the public perception is on some of the issues of the health care law. the...
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it is not that nelson mandela and the anc believed in violence. it is a people against whom the government was waging war took the action of self-defense. that's an internationally recognized strategy -- >> they took responsibility for violent acts. maybe we should put it that way. >> that's not what you said initially and it's really dangerous to keep perpetuating this articulation. nobody ever declared de clerk a terrorist. that's not what happened. what they did was to label the response to the violence. and that is dangerous because it's arguing and it's saying that mandela who by the way never renounced violence -- in the 27 years he was in jail, they said to him, renounce violence and we will free you and he said, i will not because that manifesto said, we have two choices, submit or die. and they said, we will never submit. >> we're going to take a quick break. when we come back, minimum wage workers in more than 100 cities protested and demanded a livable salary. but is raising pay the best way to really combat poverty in this country? the
it is not that nelson mandela and the anc believed in violence. it is a people against whom the government was waging war took the action of self-defense. that's an internationally recognized strategy -- >> they took responsibility for violent acts. maybe we should put it that way. >> that's not what you said initially and it's really dangerous to keep perpetuating this articulation. nobody ever declared de clerk a terrorist. that's not what happened. what they did was to label the...
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a senior south african military intelligence person who said, quote, our strategy was to paint the anc as communist surrogates, the more we could present ourselves as anti-communists, the more people looked at us with respect. people you could have hardly believed cooperated with us politically when it came to the soviets. i mean, april, i was able to find that in like five minutes online. >> yeah. well, i want to put this in perspective. i talked to former president bill clinton yesterday. did an interview with him and he said, you know, with this issue about nelson mandela and his friendships and those who supported him, like gadhafi and ka castro, he said we don't look like ourselves view themselves. when we went on the tour, the historic africa tour with bill clinton in the second term and joburg, nelson mandela was asked a question about the friendships and nelson mandela himself said, look, if you don't like my friendship, something to this effect, you can go jump in the pool. >> yeah. >> nelson mandela himself said this. >> yep. >> and you have to remember, you know, that when p
a senior south african military intelligence person who said, quote, our strategy was to paint the anc as communist surrogates, the more we could present ourselves as anti-communists, the more people looked at us with respect. people you could have hardly believed cooperated with us politically when it came to the soviets. i mean, april, i was able to find that in like five minutes online. >> yeah. well, i want to put this in perspective. i talked to former president bill clinton...
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fidel castro was financially supporting the anc when the u.s. and other world powers were shunning them, some considered them a terrorist group. at some point the u.s. was not on the right side of history when it came to south africa. it is very fitting you have cuba's leader front and center, speen a speaking role there. is it possible there could be recness of cuba's role at that time that could alter perhaps the way the united states sees cuba today? >> i'm not sure i'd go that far, but i do think that any son mandela in his early years depended heavily upon a number of people we found odious in the united states, including moma gadhafi. if he'd been alive today, perhaps he would have spoken, as well. it speaks to the mandela journey that in the beginning he was regarded by the west, i about the united states, by britain, by margaret thatcher as a terrorist. but as we've learned over time, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. i think he evolved and now we see him as a freedom fighter. just as we saw many people who fought to
fidel castro was financially supporting the anc when the u.s. and other world powers were shunning them, some considered them a terrorist group. at some point the u.s. was not on the right side of history when it came to south africa. it is very fitting you have cuba's leader front and center, speen a speaking role there. is it possible there could be recness of cuba's role at that time that could alter perhaps the way the united states sees cuba today? >> i'm not sure i'd go that far,...
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not that many foreign leaders spoke, but a tribute to, in the castro case, the fact cuba did support anc and mandela, supported him in jail when ronald reagan did not. how is that viewed behind the scenes? very carefully or something that causes anxiety attacks in the white house and create political problems also? >> given the array of challenges that the president faces on a daily basis, i think this is low down on the anxiety scale. the truth of the matter is, i heard your conversation with gene robinson, i think you guys were quite right. it would have been odd if he had done anything other than shake castro's hand. he's always been of a mind, the president has been of a mind these things are less important than the substantive discussions behind them. i wasn't surprised he offered the handshake and i wasn't surprised that got everybody in a frenzy. >> so we will relax over that. it was noted. dull not dully noted. thank you for your perspective. >> thank you. >> secretary kerry's testimony begun on the hill, his thinks on iran sanctions coming up next. ♪ [ male announcer ] everyon
not that many foreign leaders spoke, but a tribute to, in the castro case, the fact cuba did support anc and mandela, supported him in jail when ronald reagan did not. how is that viewed behind the scenes? very carefully or something that causes anxiety attacks in the white house and create political problems also? >> given the array of challenges that the president faces on a daily basis, i think this is low down on the anxiety scale. the truth of the matter is, i heard your conversation...
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and the most amazing story that he told me was on the night before they left prison calling all the anc prisoners together and saying, yes, they would be justified in acts of revenge, retaliation and retribution, but there could never then be a strong, successful, multiracial society, and that was his second great achievement, to achieve change through reconciliation. but, you know, there was a didder achievement, refusing to rest or relax when he gave up the presidency. he had great achievement to his name. he himself wrote that in the first part of his life he had climbed one great mountain to end apartheid, but now in his later life he wanted to climb another great mountain, to rid the world of poverty and especially the outrage of child poverty. and i need speak of only what i saw in the times that i worked with him, how quietly and without fanfare he went about his work. 2005 i flew to south africa to meet nelson mandela to persuade him to come to london so that he could then persuade the finance ministers of the need for debt relief to relieve poverty, and this he did. and then in
and the most amazing story that he told me was on the night before they left prison calling all the anc prisoners together and saying, yes, they would be justified in acts of revenge, retaliation and retribution, but there could never then be a strong, successful, multiracial society, and that was his second great achievement, to achieve change through reconciliation. but, you know, there was a didder achievement, refusing to rest or relax when he gave up the presidency. he had great...
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Dec 6, 2013
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here within south africa membership of the anc, nelson mandela's organization, was a crime. his image was forbidden. his words from absolutely outlawed. even the possession of a coffee cup with his image on it was grounds for imprisonment. for all those years that he was in prison his image was absolutely obliterated. generations of south africans, grew up without knowing what he looked like, without knowing his speech or knowing his words. to know the absolutely joy that gripped the country when he and other african leaders were released from prison. here is somebody that had been spoken about in the quiet. that had been spoken about behind closed doors. anyone with support for him or his organization would mean imprisonment, banishment, and could mean and did mean in many cases, death. to understand the changes within this country one has to go back to that period of time when the person who's death and life is being celebrated at the moment was vilified, and regarded as subversive, regarded as a traitor to this state and many other states, and this shows you how time chan
here within south africa membership of the anc, nelson mandela's organization, was a crime. his image was forbidden. his words from absolutely outlawed. even the possession of a coffee cup with his image on it was grounds for imprisonment. for all those years that he was in prison his image was absolutely obliterated. generations of south africans, grew up without knowing what he looked like, without knowing his speech or knowing his words. to know the absolutely joy that gripped the country...
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many people i've spoken to through this week expressing disappointment that the current anc government hasn't done more to bring those people up. but certainly, the predominant feeling this week is one of mourning and of celebration of this great man, nelson mandela, and certainly, people will be looking forward to the next several days of commemoration in pretoria and at his hometown later this week. >> i was expecting that stadium to be packed, jam-packed. i know the weather was bad, it was raining, but there were a lot of empty seats there. was it simply because of the weather? >> reporter: i think it was because of the weather and maybe because people were worried about how difficult it would be to get to that stadium as well. mostly a logistical issue. they also had other viewing places across the country but also it might be that this has been several days in the making. the true emotional moment would have been on friday after the announcement came and also, we must remember that nelson mandela was sick for several months, in fact, bedridden, so south africans in some way were e
many people i've spoken to through this week expressing disappointment that the current anc government hasn't done more to bring those people up. but certainly, the predominant feeling this week is one of mourning and of celebration of this great man, nelson mandela, and certainly, people will be looking forward to the next several days of commemoration in pretoria and at his hometown later this week. >> i was expecting that stadium to be packed, jam-packed. i know the weather was bad, it...
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but like other early giants at the anc, zulus and mutombos, madiba disciplined his anger and channeled his desire to fight in the organization and platforms and strategies for action. so men and women could stand up for their god-given dignity. moreover, he accepted the consequences of his actions, knowing that standing up to powerful interests and injustice carries a price. i have fought against white domination. i have fought against black domination. i have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and equal opportunities. it is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve, but if need be, it is an ideal for which i am prepared to die. mandela taught us the power of action but he also taught us the power of ideas, the importance of reason and arguments, the need to study not only those who you agree with but also those who you don't agree with. he understood that ideas cannot be contained by prison walls or extinguished by a sniper's bullet. he turned his trial into an indictment of apartheid, because of his eloquence and
but like other early giants at the anc, zulus and mutombos, madiba disciplined his anger and channeled his desire to fight in the organization and platforms and strategies for action. so men and women could stand up for their god-given dignity. moreover, he accepted the consequences of his actions, knowing that standing up to powerful interests and injustice carries a price. i have fought against white domination. i have fought against black domination. i have cherished the ideal of a...
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he said at an anc youth league conference in 1951, and i quote, "true, the struggle will be a bitter one. leaders will be deported, imprisoned, and even shot. the government will terrorize the people and their leaders in an effort to halt the forward march. ordinary forms of organization will be rendered impossible, but the spirit of the people cannot be crushed ntil full victory is won." this struggle became madiba's life. he was at the forefront of the radical change in the anc in the 1940's, advancing the long walk to freedom. he became a volunteer in chief during the defiance campaign in the early 1950's and became the first commander in chief of the anc's armed wing, umkhonto we sizwe, in the early 1960's. he paid dearly for his beliefs and actions through imprisonment. he stated in 1962, "i was made by the law a criminal, not because of what i had done, but because of what i stood for, because of what i thought, because of my conscience." arrested and sentenced to life imprisonment during the rivonia trial later in 1964, he never lost his fighting spirit. for 27 years, the sout
he said at an anc youth league conference in 1951, and i quote, "true, the struggle will be a bitter one. leaders will be deported, imprisoned, and even shot. the government will terrorize the people and their leaders in an effort to halt the forward march. ordinary forms of organization will be rendered impossible, but the spirit of the people cannot be crushed ntil full victory is won." this struggle became madiba's life. he was at the forefront of the radical change in the anc in...
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he started the armed wing of the anc. >> right. started as a fighter. i think it magnifies the importance of the message which is why i wanted you to give us perspective on it, rick, because if you believe he is someone who is just better than we are, you know, he just didn't feel the anger and hostility and bitterness that i would, or you would, then that's one type of person, but when you know he did feel every bit as much, he had that fierceness in him, it's what he did with it, i think it magnifies the message. >> absolutely. one of the things i've written about is this sense of fear. there were so many times we were talking and he would say to me "i was terrified. i was afraid." here is nelson mandela telling me he was afraid, terrified. he once said to me "it would be irrational not to have been terrified." i was on a plane ride with him once, one of the engines went out and i was a little nervous about it, and i looked at him, and he just was reading the newspaper like nothing happened and when we got on the ground about a half an hour later he s
he started the armed wing of the anc. >> right. started as a fighter. i think it magnifies the importance of the message which is why i wanted you to give us perspective on it, rick, because if you believe he is someone who is just better than we are, you know, he just didn't feel the anger and hostility and bitterness that i would, or you would, then that's one type of person, but when you know he did feel every bit as much, he had that fierceness in him, it's what he did with it, i...